About me

I play a paladin. These are my ramblings about what's going on with my character Denethal in the game.

Monday, August 2, 2010

The reason for tank and healer "shortage".

In a recent post of mine, I aired my views on how I perceive the rights on loot that drops in an instance.
This behavior mindset I got is, apparently, the reason there is a tank shortage.

To this I call bullshit. It is not because of people like me, who needs on upgrades to their gearsets, that cause a tank shortage. Or healer shortage, for that matter..
It is because people prefer to do the role as a damagedealer, with no real obligation to a group, except dealing some damage.
It's mainly because of the retards that bitch and moan, putting the blame on whatever happened on the tank or healer. It's the ones who can not take a single ounce of self-criticism or responsibility. The ones who prefer to be carefree, "chilled out", cool guy that prefer socializing with their friends in the game (or out of game) while the rest of the "NPC's" in the group does all the work for them. The retards.

It takes a certain mindset to play as a tank or a healer. You can't really slack, you have to pay attention on what's going on or you'll end up having a cup of tea with the spirit guide, discussing how cool that new death animation they put in in cataclysm looks.

Claim something different and I call bullshit. Yes, you can slack some when outgearing the instance, but you can't stop paying attention to what you're doing or someone in the group dies. (Of course, letting people die on purpose because they are retards and they'll cause less hassle to the group by being dead instead of alive is all well and good, but a different topic.)

People do simply not want to be a tank or a healer. It is much, much easier to be a damagedealer. That's the reason for tank shortage. Not people rolling on stuff that's an upgrade to them, no matter what spec they are currently in.

The whole mainspec and offspec "unwritten" rule is a fallacy now, with dualspec and the LFG tool in the game. The "social glue" the groups had before the LFG tool, where you had to manually gather the group is gone.
While you can still gather people the old fashioned way now, it is way to much hassle when you can simply click on the LFG button, queue up as the roles you can go as and press the "Find group" button. The LFG tool is simply that much faster and easier to use for this purpose. If you want me to spend more time in the game doing it the old fashioned way, then I call bullshit again. You wouldn't do it, so why should I?

The funny part about you "tank/healer shortage reason" people though, is the mindset you got. According to you, a freshly dinged level 80, who's leveled as a damagedealer (by questing, it's far superior to leveling speed than instances), that player is not allowed to gather gear for tanking or healing in heroics if having joined as a damagedealer. Because then that player is the reason for tank or healer shortage, no matter that the player is to become a viable tank or healer.

You guys are funny. :)


  1. I don't understand your POV. If you are to "become a viable tank or healer", why not just go buy 300g worth of tanking blues from the AH, add that to a few tanking pieces you'd inevitably get from running instances with bear tanks while lvling (assuming you are a paladin), then go tank? Healer gear, same thing, different gear. Gathering tank gear while dps'ing is lazy and rude to the current tank, since tanking is completely possible for a fresh 80 that you leveled as a healer/dps. I know, I've done it on multiple toons. (Paladin and druid)

    I agree with most of your post--that tank/healer is a much more difficult job than dps. That is exactly why I would never lazily queue dps then steal gear for tanking/healer sets. Lazy and rude you are.

  2. p.s. If it's really that important to you to queue dps and gather tank/healer gear, roll need on it only if the tank/healer doesn't need it. You will still be able to leech your way into what you consider viable tank/healer gear, just more slowly and without being rude.

  3. I find paladin healing to be the most attention demanding role, with dps a distant second and tanking a close third.

    There is a difference between the dps role I'm talking about and the average dps you see in a heroic is doing really good dps requires watching your procs and hitting the proper ability at the proper time.

    Tanking on the other hand is pretty much the same rotation every pull, with slight movement between.

    I'm hoping cata brings back some of the tanking challenges we used to have.

  4. You'll always be perceived as "rude" by someone, no matter what you do. It's strikingly often how that same "rudeness" does not apply to themselves when they find any reason at all to justify their own actions.

    Heck, I'm rude if I eat a burger and there happens to be a vegan at the place. :)

    I'm just being honest about the whole "My playtime -is- more worth to me than your playtime"-part. It took a while for me to see it this way, but once you start gearing up for doing a role other players want you to do for them, so they don't have to, there is a distinct lack of help coming your way, as your time is worth less than their time in the game.

    I do believe it's that realization that haven't kicked in with most of those who comment on my blog.

    "My time is worth more than some strangers time."
    If that's rude, then so be it.

  5. @last anonymous: Yes, there's a distinct lack of a proper rotation when playing as a retribution paladin. It's a reason it's called FCFS-rotation. :)

    However, as a tank you do need to pay attention. If that healer gets a mob on itself, you better get the mob off the healer stat.

    There will always be good and bad tanks/healers/damagedealers. It's the amount of attention put in that makes all the difference. The damagedealers can just get away with having a shorter attentionspan without killing off the group, hehe.

  6. I don't understand all this "level as a dps then try to become a viable tank or healer". If you do so, you know nil about tanking or healing. Wanna "become a viable tank or healer"? Man up and tank / heal instances while levelling, also allows you to have decent blues for your role without being "that dreaded ninjaing dpser". After you have those blues you get some craftables and go to normal FOS to get your welfare epics, but at least you know how to tank or heal instead of being totally clueless.

    If you're clueless in Deadmines, well happens, we move on, everyone was once a noob, but when you go to ICC and get a tank or healer without a clue with gear leeched as a dps then may light have mercy upon your raid.

    Also please think a sec and answer, who's tanking and healing for all those "I go for tank and healer gear as a dps". If everyone did that, no run would happen because you'd have gazillion of dps in queue and no tank or healer, because if they need gear, they go as dps, if they don't need gear, why bother with heroics any more, endure unfriendly, unsociable pugs?

    There are better gold-per-hour activities than farming frost badges for gold (primordial saronite dropped in price as hell).

  7. To answer your question:

    It's way more efficient in terms of emblems/hour ratio to grab whatever tanking gear you can get once you reach 80, so that you can go as a tank and farm emblems for your damagedealing or healing spec.

    And I didn't once state that the player who just reached 80 would be clueless about tanking.

    There's also so many guides around on how to do it that you can spend 5 minutes reading and know exactly where to get what item and in what order you should replace gear in.

    But the time will increase heavily if you're to pass on every upgrade you're after, just because some random stranger also wants it. In other words, your time is wasted by passing on items.

    And for many, the time they have to play the game is limited. If you're willing to claim that everyone is willing to spend hours upon hours in the game, just to pass on the piece of gear they came there for, to some random stranger that they don't know, then you have a very naive mindset.

    So I'll ask you a question: What makes your gametime worth more than mine? And if you turn the question around, do you start seeing a pattern?

    I'm just open and honest about why I do things I do, that's apparently a "rude" thing to do, compared to lying and putting on a "holier than thou" mentality outwards.

    Go figure.

  8. @Denethal: I recently was running my daily LFG dungeon on one of my healers and zoned into DTK with a (somewhat obviously) undergeared tank. Before we even walked in the door, the DPS (all from the same server) were trying to vote to kick him. I was willing to give it a try since I'm pretty overgeared, but they literally stood at the door while the two of us took down the first trash pull. I don't think there's one single cause for the relative shortage of tanks and healers (difficulty of play-style, difficulty of leveling a non-DPS spec, mismatched ratios between 5, 10 and 25 man and many other things play a part) but that behavior was more evidence for the "DPS suck" side of the argument.

    Seriously, what a bunch of whiny bitches.

  9. @doofman: That's what you get from running heroics as an overgeared tank.
    Those who have no responsibility, except targeting a mob and hit auto-attack, expect those who are to boost them through the instance to be heavily overgeared.

    They'll defend their own lackluster performance by blaming spec, weapons, weaponskill, etc or preferably, if they can get away with it, blame the tank or healer, as that removes any sign of responsibility from themselves.

    While the tanks or healer may not be the most responsible person themselves, they are more responsible for the performance of the group than the damagedealers are.

  10. I recently just stared tanking. Ok at the moment my character is overpowered/overgeared but it is the easiest way by far to level with no queues, ability to defeat multiple mob with higher levels, etc.
    What stopped me being a tank before is that it would be hard work. The secret is that it is not and I get to learn more about instances where I just followed someone around. I'm getting to know them.

    PS Perhaps not that overgeared I romped through Mauradon but before we got to the end someone asked why I wasn't wearing my chest piece. Silly me I'd forgot to borrow my heirlooms from another character. No (empty slot) chest/shoulders/trinkets I apolgised to the healer for making their job harder than what it should have been but honestly I never noticed a difference.

  11. Wow, the "all dps suck except for me so I'm entitled to roll on everything" argument again.

    True story from reality. I was gearing my newly dinged paladin tank (and I disagree that tanking is 'harder' than dpsing in the state of the game is today, pushing 3 buttons doesn't take much effort), and I was even running normals to get some def gear. I gave up after 3 or 4 runs because every fucking DK, retpala and fury warrior were rolling on every single plate drop. Nowadays that paladin is another DPS retardin, not that I play him anymore.

    I'm in a pretty large guild. Most of the hybrids in the guild have tank or healing as off spec. However when pugging all go as DPS. Is it because they are all a bunch of lazy "retards"? No. It's the abuse we all have to take when picking either tank or healer. The social norm in pugs is dirt. This includes:

    *GOGO tank ffs

    *DPS pulling, dying and then bitching to the tank/healer. Hell my little druid was kicked from SM when I said "I focus my heals on the tank so we won't wipe" to a trigger happy moron who in caps lock asked why he didn't get any "healz". The tank even agreed with him before they booted me.

    *People rolling on everything, either because they are entitled to do so because "I'm better than you", "I have an offspec (yea, you and every other hybrid who had brains enough to buy dual spec instead of saving up for a fucking bike)" or simply just because "I can". Paladins are the worst kind of people here, "entitled" to roll on all 3 specs, even if there are other guys trying to gear up in the party.

    *LOL tank in X K GearScore (the same guy later pulling 800 dps on trash pulls)

    *etc etc

    Get off your high horse. You're no better than the people you're calling retards because you choose to play a "hard" role in a group. And it certainly doesn't entitle you to roll on tank gear when you're not tanking that particular instance.

  12. For a post that was designed to hit like a brick, it, unfortunately for you, did not.

    You're portraying the typical example of "holier than thou" mentality. Your time is worth more than mine, but you prefer to conceal it and lie about it instead of being open and upfront.

    In your post, you're a hypocrite.

    So how about you get off your high horse? ;)

  13. Holy pally here. I agree completely that Loot in heroics is not the reason for tank/healer shortages.

    I've been healing for almost 3 years now, I even leveled through Northrend as holy. The biggest constant complaint I have had through my experiences pugging (even before the LFG tool) is the DPS' (and at times, even the tank's) Haphazard gameplay, figuring I'm there to pull their asses out of the proverbial fire. This isn't a problem with EVERY group, but it still happens often enough to be a deterrent to Pugging.

    when you outgear the dungeoun, this is mostly a non-issue, as you can survive most everything. However, a dps who pulls a group with the tank busy on another cannot be saved from a one-shot, no matter my GS. and a tank who wants to fight a boss with two packs of mobs wailing on him while wearing no pants is most likely going to die. Because while Outgeared heroics are ludicrously easy for the most part, the shit can hit the fan fairly quickly.

    Though a raid setting is an entirely different beast in my opinion. my guild utilizes (as I believe many do) the "main spec before alt spec" loot rule. exceptions are made of course for those who switched specs for a particular fight, but for the most part, this keeps the loot divvying pretty pleasant. I don't think I would appreciate working to down Sindy, only to have the tank roll for the healing shield while those of us who healed the fight still needed it.

  14. Admitting that you think your play time is more valuable than mine doesn't stop it from being rude. It just means that you are aware of it and looking to justify it.

    Doing the job of a DPS, and then taking needed tanking gear over someone willing to do the actual tanking role is a jerk thing to do. There are no two ways about it.

    Either bite the bullet and que as tank yourself, or use your words and ask the real tank if you can need if he doesn't.

    Don't be "that guy" that rolls on whatever you can equip.

  15. @Chro:

    What everyone seems to fail to grasp is that even if -I- roll need, the other party members can still do the same. There is no "exclusively mine" button, unless you're the only plate wearing player in the group.

    And no-one have managed to give me a good reason why I should pass on gear that's an upgrade. Nor have anyone been able to respond to question about whether your time in the game is worth more than mine.

    Instead, people seem to think that by calling something "rude", that will magically rectify their own actions of belittling my playtime in favor of their own.

    (And to your last line.. Please read one of my older posts. I only need on upgrades, not everything that drops.
    I do queue as both tank and healer when I do dungeons, as I got gear good enough for both roles. Or even go as dps as I got gear for that too, but then I'll have to respec again, so.. meh. ;))

  16. Think about it. People with this "state of mind" are creating each other.

    If you enter an dungeon and just need on everything and then getting away with it,
    the other people in your dungeon group will notice that and just think how awesome it must be to getting away with it. They start to do it and the snowball effect is released.

    And you dont lose that much time. The few loots u lose wont slow down your lvling and in 80 the emblem system is the way to go and almost noone need the loot in hc's. So if ur gonna keep doing this in instance, please, think really close before.

    Is it really worth it?

    Just a final note. Are u really enjoy the game when u slack dps all the time.
    For me the rush u get when ur leading the group through instances and raids are enough for keeping me tanking.

    Remember its a game, HAVE FUN! :)

  17. @Sebbe: I think you've missed the point here. It's not about needing on everything, it's about needing on upgrades. A plate item with spirit on is useless to me, the same with a +defense item that's worse than what I got.

    Heroics are there for one thing: Gearing up for raids. If you do not need on the upgrade, you'll have to run the instance again, which you can do only once a day if you're going for specific dungeons.

    And yes. It is worth it. Better gear equals faster runs, which again equals a faster gain of emblems, which again equals faster gear upgrades.

  18. @Denethal

    But still the reason to join as dps, slack and take upgrades for your 'main spec' sounds like leeching. In my battle group (med/low pop) the dps queue is ten times longer then the tank and healer queue so your reason to join as dps to be able to slack is not only a rude but also a dumb option instead of going as tank/healer needing on the tank/healing gear, getting expertise as your role and getting more emblems/time. Dualspec lvling/'prefered pve role' and you can get your gear and still be able to quest(When you lvl the chance that your gear is to bad for your role is really low, especially with heirloom items, and keeping 2 sets of gear is not to much work).

    Also my statement about playing for the fun off it and not for the gear is a really valid point.

    But im gonna be honest with you. I've done this myself sometimes and the cross realm (anonymous, never gonna meet each other again) dungeons suffice you to do this.

    Best Regards Sebbe

  19. @Sebbe: You need to reread my posts, I'm afraid. It's not about slacking in an instance and need on every piece of loot that you can need on.

    What I'm advocating is that you shouldn't just pass on items that are upgrades for you, just because someone else in your group, whom you've probably never met and never will again, needs it as well, simply because you're not in that particular spec for that run.

    Also, if you're questing, you want as much bag space available, so that you don't have to go to the vendor every 10 minutes. Having 17 slots of your bag space reserved for tanking or healing while questing is just really wasting your time in terms of xp/hour.

    Even if you have 96 slots total, it will impact negatively on your xp/hour ratio, as well as your gold/hour ratio. (Assuming you got gathering professions while leveling.)

    (Fastest way to get gear at 80 is to simply hire a tank and/or healer from the money you've gained from your gathering professions and have them drag you through the instance. It will most likely be quick runs and you'll get gear and emblems in a rather quick pace. Once you get enough gear to tank, you can start queuing as a tank yourself and soon, you'll be decked in t9 and more than ready for ICC.)

  20. #first posting anonymous posting here again#

    Wow, I revisit this thread and it has become hugely useless, there are like 12 different people saying Denethor is a jerk, his response is the same to all 12 people, and it's going nowhere at all.

    What might make this worthwhile is if Denethor would share with us if he thinks someone who legally loses an elderly persons entire retirement fund in a risky and stupid investment did anything wrong, if someone who steals his wallet in some underdeveloped country where that behavior is normal and permitted did anything wrong, if BP did anything wrong--and how he thinks those behaviors differ from ingame jerkitude, assuming he thinks it does. With that information, this largely useless discussion, while still being useless, will at least be ABOUT something. I'm not very hopeful, since he's accusing everyone who replies to him of being a rude hypocrite despite knowing nothing about them, but there's a chance something interesting will be said.

  21. Perhaps there would be a different response if you actually came up with a valid comeback instead of things that have no correlation to the topic at hand.

    I don't need to know people to call them hypocrites, that's evident enough from their writing.

  22. @Denethal

    " In my battle group (med/low pop) the dps queue is ten times longer then the tank and healer queue so your reason to join as dps to be able to slack is not only a rude but also a dumb option instead of going as tank/healer needing on the tank/healing gear, getting expertise as your role and getting more emblems/time."

    I don't see why this wouldn't be a better option.

    @Last Anonymous

    I totally agree. It's hard to argue with someone that think you are an idiot before he even read the comment. We aren't enemies we are just people with different view of a problem.


    "Fastest way to get gear at 80 is to simply hire a tank ...."

    The fastest way is to pay some people to run you through Icc but that's irrelevant.

    And I don't say you can't need on upgrades but, tell me, would you be happy tanking if all the dps would need on your gear? Nope you wouldn't and thats why you shouldn't do it and normally a person playing as dps wouldn't do this. But you are one of those scumbags that can't handle the power of anonymously. Sorry I don't wanna offend you and you seems like a nice guy. Just saying what I think.

    Have a nice day //Sebbe

  23. @Sebbe: I do not assume you're all idiots. Please re-read the post and try to see if you do understand what I'm writing.

    Let us go over your post, shall we?

    1: Wherever have I written that you join as DPS to slack when you're there for gearing yourself up? That's a statement you've implemented by your own, not to mention that it's a rather stupid behavior.

    Let me clarify: If you reread my post, I wrote that you can't slack as a tank or a healer, as someone will hit the floor pretty fast if you do.

    A damagedealer can slack by not doing damage without having any consequences doing just that. However, the slacker is not the cause of the lack of tanks or healers. That responsibility belong to the retards.

    Now, if you're lucky, you get into a team with a tank and/or healer farming for emblems. You can always ask them if you can tag along for the emblems. If you perform well, you can get lucky, if you slack.. well.. No reason to drag you along, is there?

    Where the rude part is taken from, I can only guess. You're probably referring to me needing on upgrades, which I'm in my full right to do, just as anyone else needing that upgrade is.
    If I win, great! I don't have to look for that upgrade any more. If I lose, meh, tough luck, it will drop later on and I'll have a new chance, unless something better have come along. Just as it is for everyone else.

    2: You assume I haven't read your comments. This is a false statement. Whether I chose to comment on your comments in a way you like, however, is a completely different matter. :D

    3: Sure, you can buy your way into an ICC raid as well, that's a completely valid option too. If you can afford it.

    But it is just a different of the fastest way is as I've written, which is to hire a tank and/or healer to boost you. The tank or the healer don't need the gear that drops, so your chance of winning them is increased substantially, not to mention that you'll get emblems out of it to buy more gear.

    I'll come back to that point in a new post. :)

    To me, though, it seems that I've managed to push all the buttons in your heads, which is great. Too bad it makes you respond to only parts of my texts, as it seems that you haven't read it through or understood it.

    My grammar might not be of the best as English is my 3rd language, so if anything is unclear, let me know and I'll try to rewrite it into a more understandable form.